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[poll] Red Tape Recorder << Previous thread | Next thread >>
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Moderators: Helix, silent, DrakeMegrim, Skyhawk, khamir-ubitch, Dickbut, holyass, GravyTrain, Blast_Tyrant, SoraPiroB, cosmic_marbles, Wolfwarrior27
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DrakeMegrim
Mon Jan 07 2013, 11:08PM


Steam Alias: WD!!! Drake
Class: Demoman
Posts: 3518
Liked 113 times in 74 posts
Should we restrict the Red Tape Recorder?
Yes

No


I'm putting this up so I can get a feel for the community's feelings on the sapper. Say what you will here.







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8bitlove2a03
Mon Jan 07 2013, 11:24PM


Steam Alias: timesickGallivanter
Class: Scout
Posts: 581
Liked 0 times in 0 posts

Balls to the RTR. And the Beggar's Bazooka while you're at it, because there's not a counter in the world for some moron rounding a corner and blindly unloading 3 rockets onto you in less than a second.







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silent
Tue Jan 08 2013, 12:29AM



Steam Alias: silent
Class: Spy
Posts: 1737
Liked 11 times in 3 posts

Drake, what is your definition of "restrict"?

Helix wrote ...

Could we look into balancing the game and cases like that in-house, rather than tossing it out?

I know we can alter weapon damage, the metal required after a sap, and even building destroy timers. Off the top of my head I believe all the sapper and sentry values would be in the objects.txt.

I'm not up to speed on the balance of the weapons so I might be missing the concept and point completely. Just an idea.

DrakeMegrim wrote ...

I think an interesting work around would be if the RTR only took one wrench hit to knock off. I'd be fine with a full health level 2 taking 200 metal to upgrade.

Or, if it's possible, altering the amount of time so it takes a bit longer to downgrade the sentries.








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silent
Tue Jan 08 2013, 12:42AM



Steam Alias: silent
Class: Spy
Posts: 1737
Liked 11 times in 3 posts

Warning: Silent post below.

TL; DR: Teams of regulars who hate autobalance are worse for engineers than the RTR, and removing items from the game is a bad idea that could lead to future problems.

DrakeMegrim wrote ...

I'd like to hear back from our community on some item adjustments I'd like to make. Certain items or set bonuses just make this game unplayable for me and really just makes me not want to play on the server.

Drake, is this just our server-or the game in general? I feel like you posted the other thread, it didn't go anywhere, and now you're trying another vote to get a "different" community opinion. To be quite honest, my "problems" (albeit few) when playing on our server aren't being frustrated with an item. Or being dominated by a single player because they're using a particular set, or playing a particular way, or because they may be the world's most royal douche.

The biggest problem with gameplay I've seen is watching one team being absolutely rolled by a team of regulars who insist on continuously joining spectator when autobalanced so that they can join the winning team. In that setting, NO ONE can play an engineer without their buildings being destroyed in less time than the red tape recorder, due to powerhouse combos of regulars who team up as heavy/medic or prevent a reasonable defense from being built. I've joined some games where one team had 30+ victories, the other team had 2, and the losing team's players simply kept quitting (with the subsequent autobalancing/joining spec cycle ensuing). Regulars who couldn't join the winning team suddenly had to get food...or would be back later...or just quit.

When you start doing polls like this, you'll end up with something like this:

Dickbut wrote ...

Biggest problem items in my opinion...

Which will turn into this:

Skyhawk wrote ...

Poll enough players and you could get enough votes to nerf all the weapons.

malonda82 wrote ...

I think that is getting a little bit carried away. A lot of people use those weapons, and I can understand a few things, but that is just nuts, IMHO.


Besides, many regulars (and very good players) have already weighed in:

ProfessorJerk wrote ...

As far as individual items, I'm honestly against getting rid of anything, as much as I hate some of them (specifically the ones you mentioned). They're part of the game whether they're annoying or not, and if we ban A, B and C, then people are gonna start crying about how X, Y and Z are just as bad and they should be banned as well. Just my take on it.

DeKeeg wrote ...

I dislike cheap gimmicky weapons (originated with the FaN), but I've learned to deal with them because they are part of the game (atleast that's what I tell myself over and over).

opioid wrote ...

I don't think anything should be changed. If weapons are going to start being banned or toned, then like others have said you might as well go vanilla because there's sure to be people who complain about other weapons not being changed/removed.

r_nevermind wrote ...

Everybody chill out.

Personally I feel we should leave things as they are.

Yahoozy wrote ...

The problem has never been the weapons - it's how people conduct themselves.

pwnsawsage wrote ...

As much as i hate some weapons or sets, i think things should remain as they are.

Stompbox wrote ...

I don't like the idea of removing/altering weapons..


In contrast, looking at the k/d and stats of the players who have talked about removing weapons...there is not really any reason for complaint. You are all very skilled and experienced players, and I'm fairly confident that you will be able to find some way to play against the RTR or whatever godforsaken item ends up as a scapegoat next. God forbid that there be some teamwork between players in helping an engineer defend his buildings.







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Blast_Tyrant
Tue Jan 08 2013, 01:33AM



Steam Alias: Blast Tyrant
Class: Heavy
Posts: 515
Liked 30 times in 21 posts

I agree that it would be a mistake to start altering, banning or restricting weapons. People talk all the time about various weapons being OP, and some of them are for sure. Valve occasionally fixes them or makes the weapon useless (e.g. Natascha). New weapons will continue to come out as long as the game remains popular and we will continue to see "power creep". You just have to deal with it, or work with your team to overcome the problem. At least on the Gravity Bong the engineers enjoy some building perks.







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NinjaAl
Tue Jan 08 2013, 03:23AM


Steam Alias: NinjaAl
Class: Soldier
Posts: 296
Liked 11 times in 8 posts

I feel that I've seen a thread dealing with bullshit items or crits pop up a dozen times already and usually how I feel is voiced out by Hick or somebody else, but I figured I'd chime in. I feel that while putting in some kind of magic-admin sorcery to lengthen the Red Tape Recorder or to provide a world with no piss-sniper set snipers would be nice (and not necessarily out-of-character for the server because if I remember correctly, the original reasoning for the dispenser plug-ins were that the engie was being outclassed by class update weapons and it was thought that it would balance out the playing field), I don't think its a problem warranting such an action when compared to the problem of people bitching and complaining that they can't use the loadouts they want. Who knows, maybe it would actually be a welcome addition for our server and not as reviled as some might think, but I don't think its *that something* that kills the fun of the game.

I would more likely agree with Silent that team-stacking has gotten out of hand and I know that only a few players actually try to help with teams filled with pubs. I'm guilty of this as much as anybody else. Whichever team I join is affected by whichever team has the larger amount of friends or regulars, since I could expect that people would be talking, organizing a team, and assumed not to be playing for their own kpd. If I join a team opposite of my friends, I usually get shit for joining the "wrong" team and maybe its less likely that the team of pubs would be willing to cooperate and communicate in comparison. An understandable rationale, considering our server is known for its community and social atmosphere, but it doesn't help because its unreasonable to expect to be on a team of friends every time one plays, it causes matches to be boring and one-sided, and it doesn't do anything for bringing in new regulars. And honestly, it is fun and cathartic to brutally murder your friends repeatedly.

With that said, I'm not going to shit on anybody who wishes the game could be better or complains about how its broken, because it kinda is and since Valve has made TF2 its own R&D playground for multiplayer experiences (and especially considering that most new things put in the game are made with the other gamemodes and maps in mind and under the assumption that 2fort was more or less only put in as a crowd favorite map), none of us are really in a position to do anything about it. Of course, I miss the good ole vanilla days of when TF2 felt deliberately unbalanced and clearly defined so that teamwork and communication were absolutely vital to actually winning a match. Then it became that game that I played only to shoot the shit with fun people on the Bong and now its the game I play only because I've gotten good at murdering. I feel that for anybody who has played long enough expecting TF2 to *get fixed* one of these days or to be one of those long-running online games that ages well like Quake or Battlefield would be better to accept that its not going to happen and to move onto newer and more interesting games to get their fix, like Natural Selection 2 or Planetside.







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DrakeMegrim
Tue Jan 08 2013, 08:46AM


Steam Alias: WD!!! Drake
Class: Demoman
Posts: 3518
Liked 113 times in 74 posts

Silent, I was told by other admins to make a poll and see where feelings are. It's the only reason a second thread went up. I'll look into modding the RTR (not something I've done before so I can't guarantee success.







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Skyhawk
Tue Jan 08 2013, 10:15AM



Steam Alias: Skyhawk
Class: Medic
Posts: 2514
Liked 113 times in 63 posts

I still maintain there is a counter for everything. If you are opposed by an RTR spy, be a team and get a pyro to patrol your sentry. I've played a lot of pyro lately and make it a point to find the gun when I hear, "spy is sappin' mah sentry!" Heavy/medic teams, wait for the end of the uber, some jarate and fire usually stops them. I sail a flare at the opposing snipers as I hop off my battlements, trying to pay attention to the one with the most set items. A sniper on fire is virtually useless. (apologies to the snipers, I'm an annoying bastard)

I understand the drop-ins may not have the experience to be as team oriented but there are always regulars on the server that should be able to organize enough to slow down a roll.







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silent
Tue Jan 08 2013, 10:53AM



Steam Alias: silent
Class: Spy
Posts: 1737
Liked 11 times in 3 posts

DrakeMegrim wrote ...

Silent, I was told by other admins to make a poll and see where feelings are. It's the only reason a second thread went up. I'll look into modding the RTR (not something I've done before so I can't guarantee success.

That's fine, Drake-I simply would like for you to consider the viewpoint of those who oppose removing or modifying specific items. My hesitation lies in that I feel it's a dangerous path that could lead to similar "tweaking" of other items to "balance" gameplay.

It seems that you're persistent in pursuing the avenue of changing the item (which is great), but not really giving any sort of merit to any arguments that are contrary. To me, it seems that there are more problems that cause annoying and stagnating gameplay than this one item. An item that I (having played engineer on a losing team) don't feel caused me any more grief than players who use "normal" items in frustrating ways.







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AntiHick
Tue Jan 08 2013, 10:54AM


Steam Alias: TheAntiHick
Class: Soldier
Posts: 3602
Liked 3 times in 1 posts

To be fair, by the time you hear "Spy sappin my sentry"...actually, I'd say by the time you hear "Spy sap..." the gun is already level 1.

I say do the poll, maybe even advertise for the poll on the server, give it a specific cutoff date if you do so...like two weeks from now or something...and then just see where people stand.







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